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Homo Homini Lupus
Aug. 30th, 2004 04:47 pmThis is the promised Fifth Elephant discussion. I've separated the emails into a sort of dialogue by topic. Enjoy and comment if you feel moved to do so. I want all the input I can get on this subject, as I believe I am going to write a fanfic revolving around Angua's life in and departure from Uberwald. Part of a series I'm going to call "Legacies" about what brought characters and events to the places they were when the series began. They will mainly focus on events between Night Watch-- the Glorious People's Republic of Treacle Mine Road and all that-- and The Color of Magic. So there will be Havelock Vetinari and Margolotta, Lady Messerole, Carrot's parents... very exciting. Here is the discussion.
ERIN: Okay. In no particular order, these are my thoughts and questions. I sort of wrote them down as they came to me after reading the book again.
What are Margolotta's consolations which replace vampirism? Black scopani and politics? How much did Vetinari teach her?
OLIVIA: Well, somewhere in the book she said that the thirst for blood was just a longing, and when you thought about it you realized all you wanted was power, but then she went ahead and said that power is nothing -- it's control that she wants. This is probably what she learned from Vetinari, it's like the way he runs Ankh-Morpork. He has a vast amount of control -- and it works. So yeah, politics and diplomacy are better than blood, methinks. Maybe Margolotta contents herself with controlling the people and events around her to suit her whim.
ERIN: Yes! That's exactly it. Thank you. I believe the Lyceum class had a discussion once about power and its implications, and that "power" as it's understood is control for one's own benefit and gain. Vetinari has control, not for himself but for Ankh-Morpork, because he loves it in his own way, and he realizes just as much as everyone else that he's the only one who can make it work. I can see him teaching Margolotta the difference, and how one is vastly superior to the other.
ERIN: What exactly does she hope to gain with her plotting throughout the book?
OLIVIA: I'm not too clear on what she wanted to gain from all the plotting. Maybe she's just like that -- when she rescued Vimes she seemed to indicate that she was helping him because it was more interesting that way. Maybe it has something to do with her thirst for control/power.
ERIN: Yes, I agree with that. Vetinari has a way of doing things just to make it interesting, too, come to think of it. I wonder why she then later helped Wolfgang? I think she might have been refusing to choose sides. These two cultures-- the dwarfs and the werewolves-- were sort of dueling it out, and I think she may have wanted to pad the way a bit for the vampires, so that no matter who came out on top in that match, they would owe her. No matter what, the power would be equally balanced not between three groups like before, but between one other group and the vampires. Thoughts?
OLIVIA: I agree with what you said about Margollotta's helping both sides; no matter which side won, the winner would owe her. It makes a lot of sense and falls in line with her supposed love of power/control -- ensuring that she will be one of the powers in the future.
ERIN: Margolotta knew Angua, and she refers to her as "Delphine" (they all did in the old country), and she tells Vimes to look after her. Did they have some influence over each other, as two people who chose to give up the old ways? How much?
OLIVIA: I think you've hit on the link: they both chose to give up the old ways. Maybe they both helped each other accomplish this. Anything else I could say is just speculation, about how much influence she had.
ERIN: Speculate, please! I love speculation. I've done a bit of it on this subject. Obviously the three ruling families had some contact with each other. I can imagine Angua and Margolotta meeting, and talking. Perhaps Margolotta was just starting out with the Black Ribboners, and Angua was fascinated with the concept. Perhaps Margolotta introduced her to the concept of vegetarianism. Or vice versa. I can imagine Angua an honorary attendant of a Black Ribboner meeting. ("Hello, my name is Delphine Angua von Uberwald, and I am a werewolf." "Hello, Delphine Angua von Uberwald.") I can imagine Angua asking Margolotta why she hasn't high-tailed it out of Uberwald-- she can fly, after all, it would be easier for her-- and Margolotta telling her she'd been there too long now.
OLIVIA: Your speculation about the connection between Angua and Margolotta: I actually forgot about Angua's being a vegetarian, and now that you mention it, it really does make sense that either Angua was introduced to the concept by Magrollota, or the other way around. I think the former is more likely -- Vetinari would first give the control-lessons to Margolotta, who would later meet Angua -- that might be the order of it, when Angua became vegetarian. Maybe Margolotta convinced or inspired Angua to leave Uberwald -- "I've been here too long, but it's not too late for you," she could say (but perhaps not explicitly, I'm not convinced that's in her character, but maybe the implication is there).
ERIN: And Gavin. Gavin was nastier than Carrot. But was he like him, in a way? I think it's possible. Look at his last scene. From what Gaspode says, it seems that he was fighting Wolfie with the wolf version of fisticuffs.
OLIVIA: Yeah, I think that Gavin and Carrot are alike. If Angua once loved/was attracted to Gavin, it stands to reason that in some what the two males have something in comman that Angua admires. And she does stand up for Gavin ("He's not stupid, you know. He understands more than 800 words.") He saved Angua's life, and she's a werewolf. That leads me to believe that he's a very rare kind of wolf, just as Carrot is a very rare kind of adopted dwarf.
ERIN: I love how you put that, and you hit the nail on the head. I think now that Gavin was more like Carrot than I realized before. I thought his behavior was a bit more hostile, that he was a bit more... I don't know... but when I thought about Carrot in that situation, with somebody he sees as threatening to Angua and a bloody idiot at that, his behavior would undergo that wonderfully subtle change it sometimes does, from honest naivete to a sort of pointed evasion, guarded cheerfulness, and firm warning. I thought of how wary the other wolves were of Gavin, something I didn't see Carrot in until I thought of how big he really is, and how muscular, and now he never has any trouble in the Shades... The other differences are probably accounted for simply by difference of species, different ways of life. I don't exactly view Gavin as Carrot-in-wolf-form. He doesn't have Carrot's ridiculous luck and that Destiny thing, for one thing. How do you think Gavin and Carrot are different?
OLIVIA: Like you said, Gavin isn't *exactly* Carrot, but I do think that each male's personality is very similar and that is probably the source of Angua's attraction to both of them. How are they different? Well, Gavin seems much less likeable than Carrot i -- you know, krisma and all that -- Gavin probably couldn't talk people out of a homicidal riot, nor would that option occur to him. He seems more aware of the effect he has on other wolves -- Carrot intimidates people, but at times all he does is smile and act all innocent (which does not necessarily mean that he's oblivious to how scary his little smile is, nor that he doesn't understand it, but he for all the world *appears* oblivious). I don't think Gavin has that quality of saying something that would sound trite in anyone else's mouth but coming from him sounds and *is* sincere. I'd say that's the biggest difference. Their similarity, though, lies in what I see as their honor -- neither fought dirty, for example; Gavin saved Angua, that sort of thing.
ERIN: The hunter whose trap Angua fell into was probably the original Gavin whom Gavin ate part of.
OLIVIA: Absolutely right. I can't argue with that theory. Maybe she gave him that name.
ERIN: As to the nature of Gavin and Angua's... friendship, I have a theory that Gavin was probably the first... guy... Angua was ever... ahem... intimate with.
OLIVIA: Yep! That's so very likely.
ERIN: I'm glad you agree with me about Gavin and Angua's past. I was just thinking of it one day, thinking really hard about what exactly "...friendship" means, and suddenly that explanation hit me, and it fit so well. Marten finds it creepy, even though I tried to explain to him that it's no different from Angua and Carrot together, just the other species.
ERIN: He let her run with the wolves. We know this because she mentions having done so in MAA.
OLIVIA: Yup.
ERIN: Angua probably left Gavin only because she had to get out of Uberwald.
OLIVIA: Yeah. Did she leave Uberwald to escape her family? I'm not sure if she ever explained that.
ERIN: She never exactly explains it with words. I get the impression that she left to escape partly her family, but mostly that whole way of life. In Feet of Clay, I think, she mentions that the family had always made fun of her eating habits, she was clearly different from them. Her father had told her before, "Get involved with humans other than at meals and you might as well jump down a silver mine." She wanted a normal existence. You'll notice she moved to cities, where it's supposed to be "easier" than in the country for werewolves. It's easier to go unnoticed. I think she was lonely. Most especially since Elsa was killed. And she did make a point of distancing herself from her family once she got out of there. Even stopped using her first name. From the book it's clear that she was pretty much dead to them once she moved to Ankh-Morpork. And she does seem to hold a certain disdain for them all. She just didn't like the way they lived. "We're not nice people, Carrot. We're all pretty awful."
ERIN: He apparently agreed to watch over things when she left.
OLIVIA: Yeah, hence his coming to Ankh-Morpork to warn her, out of a sense of loyalty to her.
ERIN: This makes a lot of sense, really. Because, as he stated before, when the werewolves cause trouble, its the wolves who suffer. And he knew Angua well enough to know that she was pretty much the only one who could get her family under control.
ERIN: He always watched everything. He was very intelligent, and probably part werewolf from way back.
OLIVIA: I like Gavin.
ERIN: But why did he save Angua from a hunter's trap? Why did he like her? Why did he save Carrot? Did he like him? Or was it just out of faithfulness to Angua? Why did Vimes have to draw his sword before Gavin leapt at Wolfgang? Why didn't Gavin fight dirty? Why did he come into Ankh-Morpork? Why was Angua unhappy when he came?
Ta-da! Quite a lot, I know. But, well, that's what I was wondering.
OLIVIA: Whoa. Okay. Maybe his being part-werewolf had something to do with why he liked her. I also think, if Gavin is anything like Carrot, that he would have saved Angua just because he's Gavin, like Carrot does things just because he's Carrot. I think he has some of Carrot's honorable philosophy, and that's also why he saved Carrot -- not to mention loyalty to and affection for Angua. That would also explain why he didn't fight dirty -- Carrot didn't either. As I mentioned, he probably came to Ankh-Morpork because he'd agreed to watch over things, and maybe he thought Angua would want to know about Wolfgang. Angua was probably unhappy to see him for two reasons: one, his coming all the way to Ankh-Morpork meant there was trouble in Uberwald; and two, maybe she still had feelings for him, if she only left him because she had to leave Unberwald, and now that she was involved with Carrot she didn't want this ex-boyfriend showing up and tempting her.
ERIN: I can definitely see Angua's displeasure with his appearance being caused by her knowing that she's the only one who can manage her family. Plus, she probably did not want to go back there, be reminded of that life. Especially since she had made a home in Ankh-Morpork, the city that symbolizes everything her family hates. ("Ankh-Morpork: The Godawful City!") I don' t think she really was afraid that Gavin was going to tempt her away from Carrot. Mostly because, up until the this book, she had never really completely given herself over to Carrot, because she always felt that it wasn't going to last. I'll agree that she didn't want it to actually end, and that that added to her dismay at Gavin's arrival. Because she knew that signalled the end. And I'll definitely buy that she had residual feelings for Gavin, because he was the only boyfriend she'd ever had other than Carrot who'd really accepted her, and if anyone could take Carrot's place, so to speak, it would be him. But I don't think it really crossed her mind that she was jeopardizing her relationship with Carrot by being with Gavin because she'd never completely attached herself to Carrot. She never completely let him in. I don't know if that makes much sense. I'm very tired at this point. But I do think the memory of and love for and faithfulness to Carrot kept her from doing anything with Gavin once they were reunited.
OLIVIA: I agree with what you say about Angua's reaction to Gavin's arrival. I'm thinking now that most of her displeasure stems from the knowledge that now she has to return to Uberwald. She doesn't want a reminder of that life, nor does she want to leave her life in Ankh-Morpork.
ERIN: Okay. In no particular order, these are my thoughts and questions. I sort of wrote them down as they came to me after reading the book again.
What are Margolotta's consolations which replace vampirism? Black scopani and politics? How much did Vetinari teach her?
OLIVIA: Well, somewhere in the book she said that the thirst for blood was just a longing, and when you thought about it you realized all you wanted was power, but then she went ahead and said that power is nothing -- it's control that she wants. This is probably what she learned from Vetinari, it's like the way he runs Ankh-Morpork. He has a vast amount of control -- and it works. So yeah, politics and diplomacy are better than blood, methinks. Maybe Margolotta contents herself with controlling the people and events around her to suit her whim.
ERIN: Yes! That's exactly it. Thank you. I believe the Lyceum class had a discussion once about power and its implications, and that "power" as it's understood is control for one's own benefit and gain. Vetinari has control, not for himself but for Ankh-Morpork, because he loves it in his own way, and he realizes just as much as everyone else that he's the only one who can make it work. I can see him teaching Margolotta the difference, and how one is vastly superior to the other.
ERIN: What exactly does she hope to gain with her plotting throughout the book?
OLIVIA: I'm not too clear on what she wanted to gain from all the plotting. Maybe she's just like that -- when she rescued Vimes she seemed to indicate that she was helping him because it was more interesting that way. Maybe it has something to do with her thirst for control/power.
ERIN: Yes, I agree with that. Vetinari has a way of doing things just to make it interesting, too, come to think of it. I wonder why she then later helped Wolfgang? I think she might have been refusing to choose sides. These two cultures-- the dwarfs and the werewolves-- were sort of dueling it out, and I think she may have wanted to pad the way a bit for the vampires, so that no matter who came out on top in that match, they would owe her. No matter what, the power would be equally balanced not between three groups like before, but between one other group and the vampires. Thoughts?
OLIVIA: I agree with what you said about Margollotta's helping both sides; no matter which side won, the winner would owe her. It makes a lot of sense and falls in line with her supposed love of power/control -- ensuring that she will be one of the powers in the future.
ERIN: Margolotta knew Angua, and she refers to her as "Delphine" (they all did in the old country), and she tells Vimes to look after her. Did they have some influence over each other, as two people who chose to give up the old ways? How much?
OLIVIA: I think you've hit on the link: they both chose to give up the old ways. Maybe they both helped each other accomplish this. Anything else I could say is just speculation, about how much influence she had.
ERIN: Speculate, please! I love speculation. I've done a bit of it on this subject. Obviously the three ruling families had some contact with each other. I can imagine Angua and Margolotta meeting, and talking. Perhaps Margolotta was just starting out with the Black Ribboners, and Angua was fascinated with the concept. Perhaps Margolotta introduced her to the concept of vegetarianism. Or vice versa. I can imagine Angua an honorary attendant of a Black Ribboner meeting. ("Hello, my name is Delphine Angua von Uberwald, and I am a werewolf." "Hello, Delphine Angua von Uberwald.") I can imagine Angua asking Margolotta why she hasn't high-tailed it out of Uberwald-- she can fly, after all, it would be easier for her-- and Margolotta telling her she'd been there too long now.
OLIVIA: Your speculation about the connection between Angua and Margolotta: I actually forgot about Angua's being a vegetarian, and now that you mention it, it really does make sense that either Angua was introduced to the concept by Magrollota, or the other way around. I think the former is more likely -- Vetinari would first give the control-lessons to Margolotta, who would later meet Angua -- that might be the order of it, when Angua became vegetarian. Maybe Margolotta convinced or inspired Angua to leave Uberwald -- "I've been here too long, but it's not too late for you," she could say (but perhaps not explicitly, I'm not convinced that's in her character, but maybe the implication is there).
ERIN: And Gavin. Gavin was nastier than Carrot. But was he like him, in a way? I think it's possible. Look at his last scene. From what Gaspode says, it seems that he was fighting Wolfie with the wolf version of fisticuffs.
OLIVIA: Yeah, I think that Gavin and Carrot are alike. If Angua once loved/was attracted to Gavin, it stands to reason that in some what the two males have something in comman that Angua admires. And she does stand up for Gavin ("He's not stupid, you know. He understands more than 800 words.") He saved Angua's life, and she's a werewolf. That leads me to believe that he's a very rare kind of wolf, just as Carrot is a very rare kind of adopted dwarf.
ERIN: I love how you put that, and you hit the nail on the head. I think now that Gavin was more like Carrot than I realized before. I thought his behavior was a bit more hostile, that he was a bit more... I don't know... but when I thought about Carrot in that situation, with somebody he sees as threatening to Angua and a bloody idiot at that, his behavior would undergo that wonderfully subtle change it sometimes does, from honest naivete to a sort of pointed evasion, guarded cheerfulness, and firm warning. I thought of how wary the other wolves were of Gavin, something I didn't see Carrot in until I thought of how big he really is, and how muscular, and now he never has any trouble in the Shades... The other differences are probably accounted for simply by difference of species, different ways of life. I don't exactly view Gavin as Carrot-in-wolf-form. He doesn't have Carrot's ridiculous luck and that Destiny thing, for one thing. How do you think Gavin and Carrot are different?
OLIVIA: Like you said, Gavin isn't *exactly* Carrot, but I do think that each male's personality is very similar and that is probably the source of Angua's attraction to both of them. How are they different? Well, Gavin seems much less likeable than Carrot i -- you know, krisma and all that -- Gavin probably couldn't talk people out of a homicidal riot, nor would that option occur to him. He seems more aware of the effect he has on other wolves -- Carrot intimidates people, but at times all he does is smile and act all innocent (which does not necessarily mean that he's oblivious to how scary his little smile is, nor that he doesn't understand it, but he for all the world *appears* oblivious). I don't think Gavin has that quality of saying something that would sound trite in anyone else's mouth but coming from him sounds and *is* sincere. I'd say that's the biggest difference. Their similarity, though, lies in what I see as their honor -- neither fought dirty, for example; Gavin saved Angua, that sort of thing.
ERIN: The hunter whose trap Angua fell into was probably the original Gavin whom Gavin ate part of.
OLIVIA: Absolutely right. I can't argue with that theory. Maybe she gave him that name.
ERIN: As to the nature of Gavin and Angua's... friendship, I have a theory that Gavin was probably the first... guy... Angua was ever... ahem... intimate with.
OLIVIA: Yep! That's so very likely.
ERIN: I'm glad you agree with me about Gavin and Angua's past. I was just thinking of it one day, thinking really hard about what exactly "...friendship" means, and suddenly that explanation hit me, and it fit so well. Marten finds it creepy, even though I tried to explain to him that it's no different from Angua and Carrot together, just the other species.
ERIN: He let her run with the wolves. We know this because she mentions having done so in MAA.
OLIVIA: Yup.
ERIN: Angua probably left Gavin only because she had to get out of Uberwald.
OLIVIA: Yeah. Did she leave Uberwald to escape her family? I'm not sure if she ever explained that.
ERIN: She never exactly explains it with words. I get the impression that she left to escape partly her family, but mostly that whole way of life. In Feet of Clay, I think, she mentions that the family had always made fun of her eating habits, she was clearly different from them. Her father had told her before, "Get involved with humans other than at meals and you might as well jump down a silver mine." She wanted a normal existence. You'll notice she moved to cities, where it's supposed to be "easier" than in the country for werewolves. It's easier to go unnoticed. I think she was lonely. Most especially since Elsa was killed. And she did make a point of distancing herself from her family once she got out of there. Even stopped using her first name. From the book it's clear that she was pretty much dead to them once she moved to Ankh-Morpork. And she does seem to hold a certain disdain for them all. She just didn't like the way they lived. "We're not nice people, Carrot. We're all pretty awful."
ERIN: He apparently agreed to watch over things when she left.
OLIVIA: Yeah, hence his coming to Ankh-Morpork to warn her, out of a sense of loyalty to her.
ERIN: This makes a lot of sense, really. Because, as he stated before, when the werewolves cause trouble, its the wolves who suffer. And he knew Angua well enough to know that she was pretty much the only one who could get her family under control.
ERIN: He always watched everything. He was very intelligent, and probably part werewolf from way back.
OLIVIA: I like Gavin.
ERIN: But why did he save Angua from a hunter's trap? Why did he like her? Why did he save Carrot? Did he like him? Or was it just out of faithfulness to Angua? Why did Vimes have to draw his sword before Gavin leapt at Wolfgang? Why didn't Gavin fight dirty? Why did he come into Ankh-Morpork? Why was Angua unhappy when he came?
Ta-da! Quite a lot, I know. But, well, that's what I was wondering.
OLIVIA: Whoa. Okay. Maybe his being part-werewolf had something to do with why he liked her. I also think, if Gavin is anything like Carrot, that he would have saved Angua just because he's Gavin, like Carrot does things just because he's Carrot. I think he has some of Carrot's honorable philosophy, and that's also why he saved Carrot -- not to mention loyalty to and affection for Angua. That would also explain why he didn't fight dirty -- Carrot didn't either. As I mentioned, he probably came to Ankh-Morpork because he'd agreed to watch over things, and maybe he thought Angua would want to know about Wolfgang. Angua was probably unhappy to see him for two reasons: one, his coming all the way to Ankh-Morpork meant there was trouble in Uberwald; and two, maybe she still had feelings for him, if she only left him because she had to leave Unberwald, and now that she was involved with Carrot she didn't want this ex-boyfriend showing up and tempting her.
ERIN: I can definitely see Angua's displeasure with his appearance being caused by her knowing that she's the only one who can manage her family. Plus, she probably did not want to go back there, be reminded of that life. Especially since she had made a home in Ankh-Morpork, the city that symbolizes everything her family hates. ("Ankh-Morpork: The Godawful City!") I don' t think she really was afraid that Gavin was going to tempt her away from Carrot. Mostly because, up until the this book, she had never really completely given herself over to Carrot, because she always felt that it wasn't going to last. I'll agree that she didn't want it to actually end, and that that added to her dismay at Gavin's arrival. Because she knew that signalled the end. And I'll definitely buy that she had residual feelings for Gavin, because he was the only boyfriend she'd ever had other than Carrot who'd really accepted her, and if anyone could take Carrot's place, so to speak, it would be him. But I don't think it really crossed her mind that she was jeopardizing her relationship with Carrot by being with Gavin because she'd never completely attached herself to Carrot. She never completely let him in. I don't know if that makes much sense. I'm very tired at this point. But I do think the memory of and love for and faithfulness to Carrot kept her from doing anything with Gavin once they were reunited.
OLIVIA: I agree with what you say about Angua's reaction to Gavin's arrival. I'm thinking now that most of her displeasure stems from the knowledge that now she has to return to Uberwald. She doesn't want a reminder of that life, nor does she want to leave her life in Ankh-Morpork.
